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2nd January 2014, 06:08 PM |
#1 = |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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 =20
Why Ribbon Mics Sound Dull Many ribbon mics have either gotten =
a bad=20
wrap or are at a minimum not performing up to their ability, and =
it seems=20
nobody (that I can find) understands what's going on when a ribbon =
mic has=20
poor high (and low) frequency response.
I can=92t find the = information I=92ve shared below =96 I had to figure it out myself = but it=20 wasn=92t difficult and ALL of my experiments prove my theory=20 correct. Most professional mic preamps have a low input = impedance,=20 usually 100, 600, 1K or 1.5K ohms. I come up with about 2.7K = output=20 impedance for the transformer secondary on a ribbon mic (2 ohms = reflected=20 through a 37:1 turns ratio transformer is about 2.7K) that is = being=20 required to drive a low impedance load. This is not good for the = reasons=20 below. If the preamps have 600 ohm inputs (switchable to = 100 ohm=20 for ribbon mics for more gain) how is a 2.7K source = (transformer=20 secondary) going to drive that? It can=92t. Look at the = transformer freq=20 response specs that are posted for some of these cheap = transformers and=20 you=92ll see that a source of A FRACTION OF AN OHM was used to = drive them to=20 get those specs. A fraction of an ohm source will reflect back to = the=20 secondary as a much lower impedance than 2.7K, so the freq = response plots=20 that are published are all bogus. NO ribbon mic motor has an = output=20 impedance of 0.1 ohm. Most are ten to twenty times that (about 1 = or 2=20 ohms) so you can expect a good amount of high frequency roll-off = if you=20 use a mic preamp with a low input impedance. Remember, vacuum tube = preamps=20 were around when the ribbon mic was invented, with input = impedances on the=20 grid of the input tube of 1Megohm or more in many cases.=20 Fast-forward 70 years and we find that we now live in a = world of=20 condenser mics and preamps with very low input impedances - MUCH = lower=20 than vintage tube preamps used with vintage ribbon mics. But for = some=20 strange reason we fail to take into account these changes, and as = a result=20 we expect many ribbon mics to drive loads that they simply can't = drive. A=20 mic pre with a high impedance input would prevent the highs from = =93sagging=94=20 on the primary of the transformer due to the fact the current draw = is much=20 lower, OR. the output of the transformer secondary could be = buffered and=20 boosted INSIDE THE MIC using active electronics just as condenser = mics do.=20 I use a homemade TI chip with JFET inputs as a =93pre=94-preamp = just like my=20 phantom powered condensers use a "pre-preamp" inside of = them. Using=20 a homemade low noise JFET input high impedance preamp/buffer on = the=20 secondary of the transformer causes the high frequencies to become = much=20 more pronounced and open compared to loading it down with a = professional=20 mic-pre having very low input impedances. The transformer = gives a=20 =93noise free=94 voltage boost, but the output driving current is = reduced by a=20 factor of 37 =96 there is no =93free power=94. Conversely, = condenser mics have=20 an almost constant output impedance at the XLR mic connector with = respect=20 to frequency (active circuitry as opposed to a transformer coil).=20 Transformers tend to have rising output impedances with = frequency, so=20 loading them down with a low impedance resistive load will simply = create a=20 low pass filter and make the mic sound dull and = muddy. If you=20 have a high impedance preamp such a a guitar pedal with a 1 Meg = input=20 impedance try plugging (any) ribbon mic into it before going to = the mic=20 preamp. You might get a lot of noise due to the noise the pedal = creates,=20 but you=92ll also notice that the treble is no longer being = =93sucked away=94 by=20 your $5,000 mic pre that sounds worse than a $4 Texas Instruments = Op-Amp=20 circuit that costs about $15 to build. If you build one use a=20 non-inverting circuit configuration to avoid resistor noise on the = input=20 and a TI LME49860 Op-Amp with an input noise density of = 2.7nV/sqrt(Hz).=20 This is one of the quietest op-amps you can buy. The input bias = current is=20 high, but with the *relatively* low impedance of the source = (assuming=20 2.5K), current noise is not an=20 issue. ww.lundahl.se/pdfs/datash/1927A.pdf (add a = "w") The=20 Lundahl above specs a flat frequency response =96 flat with a = 0.3 ohm=20 source and a 10K load!!! These impedances are = FANTASIES.=20 In real life they are VERY different. Try about 2 ohms for the = source=20 (about 7 times higher than the 0.3 ohms used for the specs) which = reflects=20 to the transformer secondary at about 2.5K. So a 2.5K source is = supposed=20 to drive a load as low as 600 ohms on the input of a good mic pre = PLUS the=20 cable capacitance. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN without problems. This is = basic=20 stuff. READ THE DATA SHEETS. All the above means two = things: 1)The=20 response curves and specs on transformers is MEANINGLESS, 2)You = can fix=20 the problem of a dull ribbon mic using a good transformer AND a = buffer=20 amp between the mic's transformer and the mic preamp. A buffer = alone=20 may solve all your problems better than a new transformer but it = takes=20 more time to build. An alternative is to use the Hi-Z input on a = good mic=20 preamp. ww.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa627.pdf The = above is=20 another good op-amp that won=92t load down your transformer, the = OPA627.=20 This Op-amp has the advantage of a very low input bias current = although in=20 this application that spec isn=92t as important than the voltage=20 = noise. ww.lundahl.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/7903.pdf Th= is=20 transformer specs the freq response using a 30K ohm load!!! I = believe=20 that, but as soon as you plug it into a mic pre with a low = impedance=20 input the first thing that will happen is that your treble will be = attenuated. A device designed to drive a 30K load will NOT = PROPERLY drive=20 the 600 ohm load of a mic pre. If your plugging a ribbon mic = into a=20 low impedance input mic pre you WILL experience loss of high = frequencies.=20 If you buffer the secondary so that it feeds a load in excess of = 30K ohms=20 then you=92ll get a flat response. The main problem here is = that the=20 output impedance of the transformer is not flat with respect to = frequency,=20 and if the load is too large (low impedance) the high frequencies = will=20 drop off. Also, transformers are poor drivers of long cables. = I also=20 use a very short cable (about 5′) from the mic to the = homemade=20 buffer/preamp to avoid picking up noise or loosing treble in the = cable=20 capacitance. Summary: Build a high impedance preamp/buffer = with an=20 XLR input and output. It need not be balanced. Set the circuit to = get a=20 reasonably high gain (40dB is a good compromise), and plug the = output of=20 the preamp/buffer into the XLR low impedance input of the mic = preamp.=20 Presto =96 the high frequencies are there is spades and the mic = sparkles. If you want to test this theory and have = a mic=20 pre with a good Hi-Z in here's how: I own a Studio Projects = VTB1=20 Mic pre. Not the best in the world but not too shabby - actually = sonically=20 it's a damn good preamp. It also has a high impedance (Hi-Z) = unbalanced=20 1/4″ input that's 1.5 MegOhm. The XLR input impedance is 300 = ohms by=20 contrast. I made a simple cord with an XLR on one end to = connect to=20 the mic and a 1/4 inch on the other so I could plug the MXL R40 = into the=20 Hi-Z input. Pin 3 (-) and pin 1 (ground) of the XLR connector are=20 connected to the 1/4 sleeve and pin 2 (+) is connected to the=20 tip. Plugging the mic into the Hi-Z 1.5 Meg input yields a = wider,=20 flatter sounding response, and noticeably so using only the stock=20 transformer. The bass and treble are enhanced, and there is less=20 =93boominess=94 in the lower mids. On a 12 string acoustic the = difference is=20 immediately apparent. The pick attack cuts through and the upper = end=20 sounds bright and airy, not choked or attenuated. If = you=92re mic pre=20 has a hi-Z input (usually for instruments like guitars and usually = 1/4″)=20 you can try this yourself. I=92m not certain why the bass is = enhanced, but=20 the treble is simple physics and using a Hi-Z input with a ribbon = mic is=20 almost exactly analagous to a guitar player installing a buffer = preamp=20 with a JFET input in a guitar to prevent the cable capacitance = from=20 =93sucking all the highs=94 out of the tone. The guitar pickups = present a=20 rising output impedance with frequency, but the preamp converts = the output=20 voltage to a low, constant impedance output. This allows a guitar = to drive=20 a low impedance input as well as eliminates the treble attenuation = in the=20 cable capacitance. When solid state guitar amps came out it was = recognized=20 by many manufacturers that the formerly 1 MegOhm + input impedance = of tube=20 amps sounded brighter than the new SS amps. It was quickly = recognized that=20 guitar pickups alone couldn't drive the low impedance inputs of = either SS=20 guitar amps or the direct in to mixing consoles so manufacturers = started=20 including hi-Z inputs to go along with their awful sounding guitar = amps.=20 Going into a console requires a direct box with a Hi-Z input or = the guitar=20 will sound dull due to the low input impedance of the=20 console. Audio Technica has made a major step forward in = advancing=20 ribbon microphone performance. Why it took so long is anyone's=20 guess. If anyone would like a schematic of what to stick = inside a=20 cheap ribbon mic using phantom power to dramatically improve the = mic's=20 performance let me know and I'll post it. I'm currently working to = design=20 a PC board that's small enough to fit in an R40 and plan to = convert all=20 four of my R40s using my preamp/buffers and new transformers. I'll = probably try Shannon (on order), Cinemag, and Edcor (although the = RMX-1 I=20 just received had the leads pop off from the poor gluing job they = did=20 ruining a $40 transformer - what a waste. I have two = designs. The=20 first uses two capacitors in the signal path to isolate the DC = phantom=20 power and can use the phantom power of any preamp. This would = allow use=20 with ANY preamp having phantom power that is quiet enough. = However, large=20 value non-electrolytic caps are physically big, so it may be a = tight=20 squeeze for the output capacitor. A non-electrolytic cap is HIGHLY = RECOMMENDED. PIO would be ideal but will probably be too big to = fit. Metal=20 film, polystyrene or polyester caps would be better than = electrolytic or=20 ceramic - avoid ceramic at all costs) The voltage rating on the = caps needs=20 only to be 25 volts - enough to handle the highest peaks of the = output of=20 the mic transformer. The second design uses no capacitors = in the=20 signal path, however, it requires a separate split power supply = that must=20 be constructed and a special cable with an extra wire to carry the = negative voltage to the op-amp (or some other means to bring the = power=20 into the mic. It's easy to find multi-conductor cable. The hard = part is=20 routing a extra wire into the mic. One alternative here would be = to drill=20 a small hole at the base of the mic and make special cables with = an XLR=20 jack plus a wire on one end to connect the mic, and a special 4 = conductor=20 connector on the other end that hooks to a box with a split power = supply=20 (the cable can be reasonably long in this case since the signal = will be=20 buffered in the mic). If you want the REALLY EASY = way out,=20 buy a Studio Projects VTB1, make a short (less than 2') cable to = plug it=20 into the Hi-Z input, and presto! You have now just improved the = sound of=20 your mic considerably, unless you prefer the dark, treble = deficient sound=20 of ribbon mics that is OFTEN created by impedance mismatches and = NOT the=20 mic itself, motor OR transformer. It's that $5000 preamp designed = for=20 condenser mics that's causing your problem. I = don't=20 know why this isn't common knowledge by now, but I searched far = and wide=20 and have not once found the suggestion to buffer the poor mic = transformer=20 before asking it to defy the laws of physics. Any comment = or=20 suggestion would be appreciated. I would be particularly = interested in the=20 experiences of those out there who own a ribbon and a preamp or = quality=20 interface with a good Hi-Z input who will take to trouble to jump = two pins=20 on an XLR connector and solder a 1/4" plug on the other end of a = short=20 cable to make an adapter cable and compare the recorded sound of = the Hi-Z=20 vs. the low Z inputs. I KNOW this works on a STOCK MXL R40 and a = VTB1.=20 With other mics and pres YMMV, but in general you should hear an=20 improvement in the high end and obtain a flatter response. The = deep bass=20 is also enhanced slightly using the equipment above. I'm not sure = why that=20 is, but it's the open, clear, clean high frequencies that I'm = after and=20 I've found them - buried under decades of misuse. Consider = also two=20 other things. Active electronics that were quiet enough to be used = in this=20 type of audio application have only been available for 15 or 20 = years (if=20 that) due to the tiny voltages involved. So ribbon mic users did = NOT have=20 the option of active buffering inside a ribbon mic until recently. = I think=20 that's one reason we still see the misuse of ribbons with preamps = designed=20 for condenser mics. 37:1 seems to be the upper limit of = transformer ratios=20 that still perform well. Higher ratios won't work mainly because = the=20 output impedance gets so high and non-constant with respect to = frequency=20 that the mic sounds dull with almost any preamp or long cable. = Secondly=20 when transistor amps and consoles were introduced the ribbon mic = was=20 already fading from use, and the low input impedance of the new SS = consoles combined with the fact the condenser mics sounded great = due to=20 their ability to drive SS preamp inputs but many ribbons did not = relegated=20 the ribbon to seldom used status. Now due to cheap Chinese = motors=20 they are making a comeback, but WITHOUT the inherent advantage the = condenser mic has using an active buffer inside the mic to = preserve the=20 sound picked up by the diaphragm. You can wait for a phanton = powered=20 Ribbon, or you can DIY and make your own. An internal buffer = will do=20 more than a new transformer in most cases. Even the stock = transformers=20 pass the signal from the motor, or most of it. Unfortunately the = signal=20 (especially treble) from the motor is being lost by the mismatch = of the=20 transformer and preamp and is never reaching your recording device = or your=20 ears. Stephen Cole, P.E. B.S. Degree, Electrical=20 Engineering Audio Producer/Engineer/Musician Specialty: = Vacuum tube=20 and SS audio circuit design Last edited by sampleaccurate; 2nd January 2014 at |
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5th January 2014, 06:17 PM |
#2 = |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Medfield, MA, USA
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Stephen,
I found your analysis = of ribbon=20 mike performance to be most enlightening. I've been a ribbon mike = user=20 since 1960, give or take a few years, starting with a Reslo with a = relatively hi-Z output impedance and a R to R recorder (vacuum = tubes).=20 Most recently built some ribbons using neodymium bar magnets and = Lundahl=20 transformers. Most of my test work was done with Gehringer (sp?)=20 preamp/mixer having a higher impedance than what you were talking = about.=20 As far as I can recall I have not seen that rolled off, lack of = sparkle,=20 performance. Sometime when I get back to playing with ribbons and=20 recording again, I will definitely explore the problem. So thanks = for your=20 input. I didn't want your posting and work to go=20 unrecognized. rgds, BillG Last edited by bgruhn; 5th January 2014 at 06:32=20 PM. |
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5th January 2014, 09:41 PM |
#3 = |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: webster, ma.
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I've also used ribbon mikes. The =
first ones I=20
bought were Shure 330s, later got 1 SM33. I never got to play with =
them as=20
I hoped, and it's more than 35 years. I still have them. Most =
always used=20
with Shure's A95A transformer.
Last edited by gvasale; 5th January 2014 at 09:43=20 PM. |
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5th January 2014, 09:58 PM |
#4 = |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Midland, Michigan
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bgruhn,
Those Reslosound = ribbon mics=20 were some of the best. Sadly, I lost a pair in my divorce in the = mid 70's.=20 I simply forgot to take them with me. I'm certain that my ex put = them into=20 the trash. Her mistake. They would be worth a fortune today. = __________________ Frank |
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6th January 2014, 01:07 PM |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Quote:
If you=20 record something and turn the pot while doing so, as the = transformer=20 sees different loads, the sound will change as the output coil = "sees"=20 different impedances. There is an optimal spot where the = frequency=20 response is the flattest and another optimal spot where your ears = judge it=20 to sound best. Take your pick. Use a spectrum analizer, mount the = mic in=20 front of a speaker making white noise in a non-reflective room (or = outside) and watch as the frequency response curve changes when = you turn=20 the pot. It's difficult to get an absolute measurement on the = response,=20 but relative measurements reveal what's going on. Your transformer = may=20 need a higher or lower value resistor. There is an optimal load - = you just=20 need to find it. I just wish they had put a 4th pin on = XLRs. I=20 could use split +/- phantom power and a special homemade phantom = power box=20 with negative power, put the negative power on the unused pin, and = have no=20 caps in the audio path of the circuit No modification would be = needed for=20 the mic. Ideally I'll use fixed resistors and switches to = change=20 the input impedance so it can be exactly duplicated in a different = session. Using a pot at first will tell you what range you need so = you can=20 spread the impedance over a range where it has an effect, for = example,=20 100ohm, 200ohm, 500ohm, 1K, 1.2K, 1.5K, 1.7K, 2K, 2.5K etc. using=20 combinations of resistors to reduce the number of parts. You may = find that=20 the mic sounds best over a very narrow range of = loads. Thanks=20 again. | |
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6th January 2014, 06:55 PM |
#7 = |
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diyAudio Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Blog Entries:
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Yes, I use 4 pin XLR for balanced =
stereo=20
lines. But I think Stephen meant on the mic itself, so no mods =
would be=20
required.
Thanks for your post, it makes a lot of sense. By = using=20 low input impedance mic preamps, we are loading down the ribbon = itself=20 causing an undesirable response. __________________ |
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6th January 2014, 07:54 PM |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SiliconValley
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sampleaccurate,
There are = moving coil=20 phono preamps which parallel a few JFETs to obtain very low noise, = and=20 enough gain to avoid the need of a step-up transformer. Each JFET = has a=20 0.5NF, so four-parallel ~0.15NF. These circuits can be adapted to = a ribbon=20 mic. Putting a JFET amp in the ribbon case would be = possible/ideal.=20 Separate power supply or rechargable battery. Aluminum = ribbon, 2=93=20 tall, 4mm wide, 2.5u thick ~ 0.14 ohms 1mv from the ribbon = can be=20 amplified to ~400mv output into 50 ohms. ~52db gain. = LTSPICE=20 simulations show 0.00005% THD |
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6th January 2014, 08:18 PM |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Virginia
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Quote:
__________________ photos of my work: my = blog: | |
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9th January 2014, 08:57 PM |
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diyAudio Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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AC Impedance not DC Resistance Quote:
The "AVERAGE" AC = impedance=20 (across the audio band) of the ribbon motors I've read about is = from 1 to=20 2 ohms. | |
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